Photographic workshops - some questions for you all

[jools-elliott]

Morning all

Something that I am thinking of doing is running some workshops both here in France and over in the UK. However, before I set off on such a venture I thought I'd do some research from people.

1) The first and most obvious question is how much would you pay? I'm specifically talking about working in a group rather than one to one. As well, think about how much you would pay for a half day (dawn to midday/ Midday to sunset); whole day (dawn to dusk) and say a three day workshop.

2) The tutor's knowledge of the area. In some cases it is vital but in some areas of the UK the landscape does the work for you. How vital is it for you that the tutor knows it inside out? If the tutor didn't but you were in gorgeous landscape, would it matter?

3) Group size. Personally, I was thinking a maximum of three people. Too little or just enough?

4) What would you expect from your tutor? That he is an all round God of photography? Mr Technical or Mr Practical?

5) How far would you travel from location to location? Both in a car and walking.

6) How would you feel if you booked a 3 day course and all it did during the weekend was rain? Would you expect a full refund/ partial refund/ take a rain check?

7) Would you prefer it if the tutor didn't bring his own camera? There are two schools of thought on this and I've seen people who do both. What do you think?

8) Accomodation/ food. Would you expect it as part of the price? Would you prefer to arrange your own and the group have a central meeting point? This is an interesting one for me as due to the tax regime I am under here in France I can not claim back expenses on my tax return.

That's all I can think of right now. I'd be very interested in people's opinions.

Jools

[jet_kit]

Hi Jools,
Bit of a saturated market, but good luck anyway.
A few things that spring to mind:
What sort of courses of instruction would you be offering? "This is a camera and this is how you point it." probably wouldn't have too much appeal.
As you mention the likelihood of rain, I'm assuming this is going to be an outside thing and we won't be staring at PS on a monitor. So, is this landscape, architectural, outside portrait techniques etc.?
How would you categorise the course? Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, and how would the prospective student know where he/she fits.
As an observation I would suggest the tutor leaves his camera at home. People want to know to do stuff with their own gear, not someone else's. As long as the tutor is sufficiently knowledgeable of most of the kit in common usage, that should be fine.
To make it worthwhile for you, you would probably have to charge a minimum of £350 per head for a 3 day course for 3 people. You might consider increasing it to 5 people which will spread the load and make the cost more appealing.
Good luck

[jools-elliott]

Thanks Jet. Some interesting views.

To answer some of your questions.

Yes, it's a saturated market but not overly so. A lot of people have come and gone. As well, being here in France I have two things. One, I live here so have the advantage of already being here. And two, I speak French well enough that it can help in getting local knowledge etc from people. Of course, it helps in any case as speaking the local language of a country will always be preferable.

What sort of courses? From beginner to upper intermediate. I'm sure that there are many people out there who really are at the stage of "this is a camera and this is how you use it". In fact, I know there is as I'm a member of an expat forum that has a photography section.

Outside, most definitely but not exclusively. I'm a landscaper who deals with the coast and rolling landscapes. Chuck in a helping of forests/ woodlands as well as the odd bit of architecture. With things over here, I was thinking it would be a mix as here in France there is a great variety of landscapes, coasts and architecture.

As far as catering for different levels, it is important as a teacher to recognize that everyone has their own level and everyone learns in different ways. The teacher must adapt his/ her style according to the individual.

Interesting on leaving the camera at home. I've seen both and I think both has its merits.

Keep the thoughts and opinions coming

[GeoffWessex]

Hi Jools.... I'm not really in touch with current UK prices, but I'll have a go at the list....

1. Half day - 35 pounds, all day 50, all day with lunch provided 60, three days with two breakfasts, two dinners - 200. Look at it this way.... if you want to attract the average amateur who wants a little break - think of what the UK minimum wage is (6 quid). Charge that per hour, so a full day would be about 50 pounds - if you've got a group of five, that's still 250 for the tutor (give or take), which isn't bad.

2. Very important that the tutor knows the area or has done his homework to the nth degree - you don't want to waste time finding locations.

3. Five or Six - not that many and it can keep the individual costs down - because the instructor gets a bit more.

4. Personally, I want a Mr Practical - with a decent technical knowledge too. But then somebody in the group might need a lot more - which can slow the whole thing down - so being with some photographers of a similar standard of knowledge would be good.

5. All down to travelling time - anything more than about 40 minutes and I might think I'm paying just for travel.

6. Rain or shine, can't be helped (who wants empty blue sky and high contrast anyway?). Throw in an extra banger for breakfast and I'll be happy.

7. I would not want a tutor to bring his own gear.... it's all about the group paying the money, not the tutor. He can get pictures another time. If he's taking pictures then he's not tutoring. If he really wanted to take pictures he would have to cut the price.

8. Provide a location for meals - just don't add anything to the price for them. Or, if you have a partner who cooks, make it an all-in price. Not easy to provide individual lunchboxes 'on the go' as people would want different things - though it's a good to break the ice if they start swapping sandwiches and pork pies around. Really, if providing food while on location, it's probably better to come up with a hamper containing a small buffet. But students can provide their own drinks or given a choice. Very difficult to set hard and fast rules for accommodation - all depends on the location. If it were in, say, rural France, I think you'd need to make arrangements with local hostelries - they're usually small and can't cope with large groups. The whole thing would need a lot of tailoring to suit.

[jools-elliott]

Thanks Geoff. I've also got this going on another forum and it's interesting seeing people's responses.

1) Prices have changes dramatically. It's not uncommon to be looking at anywhere between £100 and £150 for a day of photography. And that is not necessarily a FULL day. Sometimes they are from 9 to 5 or from 9 to dusk. I'm thinking that it would be nicer for people to see the WHOLE day rather than a bit of it. Half days are difference in that it would be dawn to midday or midday/ lunchtime to dusk.

2) I agree in the main with that. I think though that there are some locations that ooze potential, have been photographed a lot already and so you could work something out quite easily. Especially if it was targeted at a specific audience.

3) That's the number I'm headed towards. I suspect though that it will stay at 3.

4) Excellent stuff. I'm of the thinking that in order to learn, you need to get out as much as possible. I did this in the early days and it has paid off.

5) This seems to be the general consensus. Anything beyond an hour is taxi time.

6) The weather is a tricky one. There's rain, and then there's RAIN!

7) The tutor thing is a damned if you do, damned if you don't. I think that at the least the tutor needs to take some filtration with him/ her in order to explain it.

8) For France, most definitely things would have been looked into in advance. It'll always be tricky though when it comes to food. One a day's workshop, I'd like to maximize time and so would probably asked for a packed lunch. Then at the end of the day, find a pub.

Location wise. I'm looking at the following for France:

1) Burgundy
2) Alsace
3) Auvergne
4) Brittany
5) Paris

Each has easy airport or ferry access.

In the UK, I'm thinking of Dorset, Devon, Cornwall, Southern Wales and maybe up in the Lake District. I discovered yesterday that RyanAir will be opening up a flight to Manchester from here in Tours. That is damn handy for that area!

Any other comments folks? I'm very interested in what people think and value opinions.

Jools

[GeoffWessex]

Jools... I think you need to get hold of a copy of "Outdoor Photography" - excellent magazine, made in Sussex by the people who make "Black and White Photography". There are lots of ads in there for photographic holidays, seminars, weekends and day-shoots, so perhaps checking their websites and looking at their prices would be useful. Obviously you can't offer the same prices as Joe Cornish, Charlie Waite or Lee Frost, among others, but you could work out where you stand for prices.

I think the prices like the 100 to 150 pounds per day put you out of the reach of so many people... and maybe the people with that kind of cash might be looking for a real five-star day (with the likes of those above). I was a single parent in the UK for 17 years - couldn't work any distance from home, ending up with some really crappy jobs.... I might have been able to go for about a fiver an hour (10 years ago) but nothing more. I know what it's like to have a hobby but not much cash. (I'm still a single parent but my daughter's 24 now). Whenever I can, I put a word in for those less well-off (which I will be again when I return to the UK next year).

With the tutor taking his/her own photographs.... if I were on a trip like that, I'd very soon get the impression that the punters were just there to give the tutor a free trip and at the first sign of the tutor being more interested in his/her own photographs than those of the group I'd be very p***ed off. Demonstrating various techniques like the filters, etc. could easily be done on a student's camera.

With the rain, yes, true.... it could be a complete washout. If it was, I suspect the trip would be cut short and some compensation would be payable - you'd have to work out what the trip had cost you up to that point, add a relevant fee for yourself and work out each situation at the time.

Have you come up with a price for the Auvergne yet? I'd be very interested..... but I'd have to take into account the cost of Eurostar, then travel to the location and everything else. Could be quite an expensive weekend/week.... but you'd still have to come up with a price to make it attractive.

[jools-elliott]

Hi Geoff

I'm a subscriber to Outdoor Photography so I'm aware of who is out there, what they charge and for what. That's how I am basing my prices. Would mine be £150? Nope, that is too much. However, it wouldn't be in the fiver an hour.

Would I be taking my own photos? Unlikely as people have paid for my time and so deserve attention.

Price on Auvergne? I suspect that it would be something in the region of £350 - £400 for three day without accomodation and without food. The accomodation is because of my tax circumstances in France. The food is actually quite normal and you'll see on some tours that you only get breakfast from the hotel.

Auvergne is somewhere that hasn't been done to death and I would say remain relatively untouched by UK photographers.

*Edit: Looking into the costing of going down to Auvergne etc, it would work out more like £550. My original costings was for three days in the UK. Things are that bit more expensive over here on some things.

[GeoffWessex]

Ah, well..... out of my range, then. 550 pounds plus food and accommodation and the cost of getting there..... 1000 pounds? That's one hell of a weekend! C'est la vie. (Perhaps it should be Euros.... but that's still going to be beyond my resources).

[jools-elliott]

As I said, the problem is costings over here in France. There are some things that are either double or triple the price of the same in the UK. I also have to think about how much I am going to make at the end of minus tax plus national insurance.

For example, I pay two rates of national insurance. One is for if I sell something and then I pay 12%. The other providing a service is 20 odd percent.

It all has to go into the mix.

Tax is another story over here and is a flippin' nightmare!!! If you muck it up one year, you will forever have the taxman on your back.

[jools-elliott]

OK, debate and opinion is good.

Having slept on this and toyed around with viable options, I think that if there were 3 days in somewhere like Auvergne, with 5 people then in Euros the cost would be 475€, so more like 430 quid at the current exchange rate.

Adding in more people made it more viable because of the costings involved.

Geoff, you have to remember that in all of this you are not just paying for photography but teaching as well. During June, I was working in a school for 40€ AN HOUR. When you said to me around a fiver an hour my jaw dropped. That is less than the minimum wage in the UK!

Here in France, the minimum wage is nearly 10€ an hour.