Press and Documentary thread

[BenBirchall]

Originally Posted by GraemeMather

Interesting reading guys, and as it was said earlier by Ben, it's a lot easier to get a picture agency to do the selling and distributing for you.... it's what they do! A lot of smaller agencies are happy to have images submitted by anyone as long as they are newsworthy and decent quality. At the end of the day, the more pictures in their databases to sell, the more likely they are to make their commission.


Anyway..... I was going to ask Ben a question if he doesn't mind? I was speaking to a couple of staff photographers who were saying that there is an awful lot of agencies who are coming in with cheap images undercutting everyone to the point that editors are picking the cheap and often sub-quality pictures(budget constraints) rather than going for good images.
Subsequently this seems to be affecting the livelyhood of staff photographers and them getting laid off.

Do you think that this is just the "old-boys" reminissing about the olden days etc. or a sign of the times/digital age bringing more, possibly less talented photographers into the frame? Is this a case where you are too?

Cheers
GM

Staffers aren't laid off due to agencies undercutting because the pure nature of having staffers is that they completely follow the in-house editorial policy and don't get involved in anything but their own paper's affairs.

There are lots of talentless photographers in the market now, but then again there always has been! Maybe there are more now as it's easy to shoot and file? I don't know the answer, however, I know that papers and businesses are all being squeezed in their pockets so getting a picture cheaper is always a good prospect, even if the quality is slightly worse.

Ben

[flake]

Picture credits - It stings, but don't get crushed when you don't get a credit. I bet most of the staff photographers don't get one! Pic ed's hate this, but it's decided by the newspaper editor and chief sub-editor and all down to the in-house style. Some papers do, some don't. However most local rags don't. Why? Usually time constraints by the sub-editors working the page, sometimes forgetfulness and sometimes it's a space issue.

As far as I was aware photo credits are a legal requirement not just a nicety, of course some editors omit them, but if they do most photographers aren't going to bother much, after all most would like to sell their images again to the user!

[karenoliver]

So Ben, what would you suggest with regards to courses? I am off to Uni next year and am interested in the press/documentary genre but don't know whether to do a specialised photo journalism course or do the BA in photography. Also my local paper used about 20+ of my photos in an online slideshow but I never got paid, actually I never asked because I figured it would be good to get my name known. Is it better to get your name known first before asking for payments? I have only taken photos for the last 3 years so have no past record or experience. Is doing free work going to pay off in the future or not?
Karen

[BenBirchall]

Originally Posted by flake

Picture credits - It stings, but don't get crushed when you don't get a credit. I bet most of the staff photographers don't get one! Pic ed's hate this, but it's decided by the newspaper editor and chief sub-editor and all down to the in-house style. Some papers do, some don't. However most local rags don't. Why? Usually time constraints by the sub-editors working the page, sometimes forgetfulness and sometimes it's a space issue.

As far as I was aware photo credits are a legal requirement not just a nicety, of course some editors omit them, but if they do most photographers aren't going to bother much, after all most would like to sell their images again to the user!

Flake - Of course the legal process could force a paper credit a photographer, but it would only happen after the event and be meaningless. Remember that a picture credit won't pay the mortgage. Seasoned photographers and the circle of press snappers will know who took the shot anyway. We don't worry too much that Joe public isn't shouting our name from the rooftops. The press industry isn't like other photography disciplines. Deadlines are too tight and images are pretty much throw-away chip wrappings.

Karen - If you want to work in the industry and be a jobbing photographer do a vocational course with an industry qualification. Even better, forget collage and get involved with your local paper/website. Only go for a Degree qualification if you want to teach photography or pursue a more artistic path. There aren't many docco/press togs with degrees.
Doing free work... Hmmm. Depends how you look at it. Doing free favors is ok, but free work, no. I used to do odd jobs for my local rag as favors, but they'd keep me stocked up with free film. Soon after that I was charging for images used. Getting your name known is a matter of doing jobs in the local area. However, you won't be very popular with the other snappers in the area if you do jobs for free.
I hope that helps a bit.

Ben

[BobtheTog]

Originally Posted by BenBirchall

Doing free work... Hmmm. Depends how you look at it. Doing free favors is ok, but free work, no. I used to do odd jobs for my local rag as favors, but they'd keep me stocked up with free film. Soon after that I was charging for images used. Getting your name known is a matter of doing jobs in the local area. However, you won't be very popular with the other snappers in the area if you do jobs for free.

I agree! Doing a job as a favour that you are going to get something non-monetary out of isn't necessarily working for free.

I recently gave some shots to eventingworldwide for their site. I didn't get any money for them but they got me into Blair Castle horse trials that I was going to with my wife anyway (free entry) and plugged my website. On the back of this I earned so much more money off the shots because my audience was suddenly so much bigger.

When I first started doing news/sport stuff, I needed experience so I contacted my local newspaper photographer and asked him if I could do some stuff with him and he got me along to a couple of football games and a remembrance day ceremony. Some of my shots were in the newspaper, but the most important part was that I got pictures for a portfolio and introduced to a couple of guys who gave me contacts. That in itself was payment enough.

Bob

[AdamGasson]

Originally Posted by BenBirchall

Flake - Of course the legal process could force a paper credit a photographer, but it would only happen after the event and be meaningless.

...

Ben

'Ello Ben!

The Right to Attribution, part of the Designs and Copyright Act, only enforces attribution that has been previously agreed by provider and end user. So if you send images in on spec there is no such agreement unless you clearly state a mandatory byline in the caption.

Ultimately though editorial use is not subject to attribution requirements as laid out in the above act, primarily due to the fact that a single publication maybe using hundreds of images and bylining every use would be time and space consuming.

So unfortunately newspapers are under no legal obligation whatsoever to byline. But in doing so it saves wasted phonecalls from secondary buyers contacting the picture desk.

Adam.

[BenBirchall]

Adam. You've either swallowed a dictionary or been cutting and pasting again! Lol. Essentially like I said, a solicitor on a photographers behalf could force a byline through the legal process. Of course assuming they'd stated a mandatory credit as all photographers submitting on spec should be doing (I think there's a thread on here I posted before offering that advice). However, it defeats the object as you'll want the credit on the pic on day of publishing not after, which is what would happen if it was forced by a legal process that takes weeks.

Bottom line with pic credits is that smile if you get one. Smile if you don't!

Anyway, it can work against you in the industry when you get a terrible shot and they byline you!!!

Ben

[karenoliver]

Originally Posted by BenBirchall

Karen - If you want to work in the industry and be a jobbing photographer do a vocational course with an industry qualification. Even better, forget collage and get involved with your local paper/website. Only go for a Degree qualification if you want to teach photography or pursue a more artistic path. There aren't many docco/press togs with degrees.
Doing free work... Hmmm. Depends how you look at it. Doing free favors is ok, but free work, no. I used to do odd jobs for my local rag as favors, but they'd keep me stocked up with free film. Soon after that I was charging for images used. Getting your name known is a matter of doing jobs in the local area. However, you won't be very popular with the other snappers in the area if you do jobs for free.
I hope that helps a bit.

Ben

Thanks very much for the advice, Ben. I have taken it on board and its given me quite a bit to think about.
Karen