legal stealing?

Originally Posted by happypaddler

Marcus,

I'm assuming you have been in contact with the legal dept re my last question. Have you had any reply yet?

Bump

Originally Posted by happypaddler

Hi Marcus,

Thanks once more for a reply - I see no issue with your explanation re deleted photos... unless the lead time is something silly like over a month... it is a fair expectation on Futures part to be able to use an image if its there when compiling a newsletter.

Also your reply in relation to the other paragraph:

“With respect to all other Content you upload, post or otherwise transmit to the Website, you grant Future and its group companies a non-exclusive, royalty free, sub-licensable, perpetual, world-wide licence to use, modify, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute such Content (in whole or part): (i) on and through the Website and Website Service; and (ii) in any other form or medium now known or later developed.”

My example of a video upload, was just that, an example only. Why is that paragraph even included? Exactly what content that we possibly may "upload, post or otherwise transmit to the Website" is future seeking to have rights over? Arguably my words posted here could be used (its a public forum so thats possible anyway - but lets pretend that its a closed members site - where only those who sign in can view the threads) by future for whatever reason they wish....

Unless you change the T & C's further this is the last area I am seeking clarification on.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by happypaddler

Marcus,

I'm assuming you have been in contact with the legal dept re my last question. Have you had any reply yet?

Originally Posted by happypaddler

Bump

I'd still be grateful to have a reply to this question.

[darkshelves]

As someone who has had to create T&C's the alternative to pulling holes in things is to make alternative proposals. It would be great to see some alternative drafting. I always take the view that you never get something for nothing. Each party is offering something to the other. What are people who contribute prepared to give for a free web site? Perhaps Future should look at the Flickr "pro" model and charge for those who want more.

Originally Posted by darkshelves

As someone who has had to create T&C's the alternative to pulling holes in things is to make alternative proposals. It would be great to see some alternative drafting. I always take the view that you never get something for nothing. Each party is offering something to the other. What are people who contribute prepared to give for a free web site? Perhaps Future should look at the Flickr "pro" model and charge for those who want more.

It's a fair point, I did offer (albeit somewhat flipantly) help during the beta, when the T & C's were being debated. I'll not go into it all now as a quick search on the forum (assuming all posts including the beta stage are still searchable). I've written / amended a limited number of contracts (admitidly it's been a while - ask me a criminal law or legal mental health related question and my knowledge is good) , arguably T & C's fall into a contract category. It's all about offer & acceptance. Yes the site is free, but a site is only as good as the members. If those members are treated a free cash cows (as the original T & C's allowed) by future, the site becomes unfair & will dwindle - as it already seems to be doing. They have changed dasticly - to the benefit of all parties.

Just to note: the original T & C's can be found on all other radar sites. This site just used the same ones generated for non-photography sites & I bet no one looked at them before attaching them to this site (or did and did not understand their meaning).

Hi Marcus,

I was wondering if you have continued to read the "legal stealing" thread - I have asked you another question (on the 21st Sept) and I have not had an answer. I have my suspicions as to why Future wish to keep the paragraph in (as do a couple of other forum members who emailed me privately). But it would be nice to have a response, rather than, as I feel, being ignored. I say ignored because Amy has answered another question in the thread, after my unanswered one.

There seems to be a large lack of interaction once more on the forums, and a large amount of criticism surrounding galleries. I just had a quick look at the statistics, within the "General Chat, Photoradar" area the "legal stealing" thread has had 1,565 views, the closest thread is "lack of interest" thread with 1,186 views. In other areas, the trend continues, threads outlining an unhappy forum have big viewing figures, an obvious example being the "Missing members" thread with 1,548 views.

At first, during the beta testing many experienced web site and computer coding knowledgeable people offered help and advice, all this was swiftly jumped on by your staff and taken as personal criticisms aimed at individual staff - they were not - but which such harsh responses, came the inevitable backlash of forum members and some personal criticisms came. All members wanted to do was to help your team make the forum work, sort out the issues and begin to develop a thriving and vibrant community. Unfortunately this has not seemed to happen. There has been a lack of useful information being fed into the forum from Future (this has improved a little bit following the site going live), alongside the issues surrounding the T & C's, has caused many really good, useful, helpful and friendly people to say enough is enough and leave (some have effectively been asked to leave by Future). This is a real shame - there were many people who (me included) benefited from their knowledge and experience.

I suspect that this site will eventually begin to work - though this will occur as the threads showing discontent fall by the wayside and off the front page of each discussion area. The site will also begin to work with a new set of members who will not look heavily at those previous threads, or look at the remaining issues surrounding the T & C’s, as they will judge a site which is up an running, with members contributing, to have acceptable T & C’s - if not, why would current members be there?

I have decided that I shall be one of those former members. I suspect from a lack of response to my question, that my perceived reason for Future wishing to keep the paragraph in question within the T & C’s is true. I notice from another thread that there is no way of members deleting their profile by themselves. I therefore would like you to remove all my personal details from your records and servers. I will also post this email onto the forum within the “legal stealing” thread in the hope that you shall answer the question I have asked.

Many Thanks

[Marcus Hawkins]

Happypaddler, thanks for your email and post.

First, apologies for the lack of response to your last post. Commitments elsewhere continue to eat into my ‘forum time’, but no excuses. I had told Amy that I was going to reply to your question, hence her continuing to respond to other posts. She definitely hasn’t been ignoring you. By the way, it’s a shame that you feel there’s a lack of interaction on the forums – I know Amy and Rach respond to threads daily. Maybe there just not the ones you’re contributing to?

To be honest, I’m not surprised that the threads you mention have so many views. ‘Legal stealing’ and ‘lack of interest’ are quite provocative headings, and I’d suggest that it’s human nature to be attracted to those, rather than ‘best photos ever’.

We’re not setting out to deceive with the T&Cs. As you know, I’ve worked to refine the terms to a point where I feel they are acceptable. With reference to the “With respect to all other Content you upload...” paragraph, that is included to make it clear that the magazines (and their licensed editions, if they so wish) may use forum extracts, or comments left on technique articles, reviews etc. As you point out, “Arguably my words posted here could be used’, but this term removes the doubt. I just don’t want anyone to be surprised if a comment they make turns up in a PhotoRadar section of the letters pages of Digital Camera or PhotoPlus.

Amy has now deleted your profile, as requested. Obviously this now means you won’t be able to post on the forums unless you re-register, but do email me with any further comments.

Marcus