Press and Documentary thread

[BenBirchall]

Start with your local paper, unless it really does have national significance...

Ben

[frank231160]

Ben
I have a question if you don't mind. Last year I attended my Nieces dance club show and took pictures and decided to e-mail them to my local free newspaper which deals with news of all sorts to do with the local community, it is a proper news paper and does have press photographers on their books and news teams etc. Anyway my cover letter or e-mail gave all the pertinent facts who, when, where and why and I asked if they would be interested in using them and confirm receipt of said images. I was contacted the next day to confirm they had received the images then heard no more, a week later my brother-in-law told me that my pictures were in the Crosby Herald their sister paper and the one I would not get in the Bootle area. Four of my images were used in their entertainment section along with a brief write up of the facts I had given them. I received no credit for the images and no payment, by sending the images had I given up my rights to those images and had they just summised that I was just some happy snapper, which personally I feel I am more than that and my images would have shown that although not masterpieces. I am a bit aggrieved that they did not contact me to tell me they wanted to use them and then to use them in a different paper, at the very least I would have liked a credit for the images. I won't be doing anything about it now but I really was chuffed and P****d off at the same time.
Frank

[ap4a]

Originally Posted by frank231160

Ben
by sending the images had I given up my rights to those images

No. Asking if someone is interested in using an image is not the same as licensing it to them.

For the future, either send contact sheets (or the digital equivalent) instead of high res. images and if they're interested they can then ask for them, or send a clearly specified license with them and make it clear under what conditions they can be used and what compensation is required for the use.

[OldBoy]

Originally Posted by frank231160

Ben
I have a question if you don't mind. Last year I attended my Nieces dance club show and took pictures and decided to e-mail them to my local free newspaper which deals with news of all sorts to do with the local community, it is a proper news paper and does have press photographers on their books and news teams etc. Anyway my cover letter or e-mail gave all the pertinent facts who, when, where and why and I asked if they would be interested in using them and confirm receipt of said images. I was contacted the next day to confirm they had received the images then heard no more, a week later my brother-in-law told me that my pictures were in the Crosby Herald their sister paper and the one I would not get in the Bootle area. Four of my images were used in their entertainment section along with a brief write up of the facts I had given them. I received no credit for the images and no payment, by sending the images had I given up my rights to those images and had they just summised that I was just some happy snapper, which personally I feel I am more than that and my images would have shown that although not masterpieces. I am a bit aggrieved that they did not contact me to tell me they wanted to use them and then to use them in a different paper, at the very least I would have liked a credit for the images. I won't be doing anything about it now but I really was chuffed and P****d off at the same time.
Frank

Send them a bill for the use of those images see here for rates: http://media.gn.apc.org/feesguide/photo.html

Work out the cost and invoice them, if they give some glib answer about not paying, point out that you sent to images to your local paper and not them. If they still refuse say you will take them to the small claims court, check your local CAB for details.

[BenBirchall]

Okay... You could go the OldBoy route and although I sense a tongue-in-cheek response it's legitimate for you to pursue payment IF you stated that they were offered on-spec and would require payment for publication. It really does depend on how you word the letter... All papers are group owned so if you submit words and pix in one paper, the rights will usually include titles in the group (all legal fine print stuff I'm afraid!).

A picture editor will assume that images sent in and offered for publication are free unless otherwise stated.

I'll respond to a few points from the other side of the fence so you can get a better picture of how this industry works....

Picture credits - It stings, but don't get crushed when you don't get a credit. I bet most of the staff photographers don't get one! Pic ed's hate this, but it's decided by the newspaper editor and chief sub-editor and all down to the in-house style. Some papers do, some don't. However most local rags don't. Why? Usually time constraints by the sub-editors working the page, sometimes forgetfulness and sometimes it's a space issue.

Picture desk contacting a photographer - Believe me, they have one million tiny tasks to do from minute to minute on daily papers. Calling every person who submits pictures or articles to say thanks-but-no-thanks would be crazy. Pic ed's only call you when they want something. If you send it in accept that it's in the hands of the Gods. All press photographers work under this premiss, even staff photographers. If the editor wants to run it, he/she will without dwelling on it.

Payment - Like all business, you have to invoice picture desks to get paid. They don't have time to log and work all the accounts out. You send it, they file it and once a month the accounts dept comes round to collect them. Maybe a month or two later you'll get paid. That is if you've registered with the accounts dept and quite possibly signed a contract for image submission.


Shame you may not submit again. If I was you (and I was!) I'd chalk this up as experience and for future submissions state that a mandatory credit is required for free use of the images. Pictures published without the following credit 'Joe Bloggs' will be charged at £XX per picture. If money is your motive then before the next time you submit call the picture desk and ask them their picture rates for freelance. Some pay per pic, some by size, but most don't have a budget at all. Include the pic rate in your email with the pix and state that they are submitted at those rates upon publication. That way when the pic ed goes into conference with the editor he/she can offer the pictures and the editor (who controls the overall editorial budget) will know exactly how much that story will cost the paper. Simples.

I don't agree with sending low res images to picture desks. You're not dealing with back street criminals. Word your on-spec submission in plain English stating that publication will require payment and they will pay. Low res pics are annoying for desks as you can't see if they're publishable quality and having the original file means they can get on with putting the story and pages together as the deadlines loom. Contact sheets! lol. They go straight into the 'waste of time' folder!!

Don't get too upset by what's happened. It's happened to every single professional too!!!

It's hard to explain how the industry operates to outsiders, but I hope that makes things a bit more clear.

Ben

[ether]

Much sence there, thanks again Ben


Ed

[frank231160]

Thanks for that Ben, I do agree that I wouldn't send in a contact sheet or a low-res image as per the points you made. Like you say I chalk it down to experience and make sure I have a proper plan next time.
Just one thing though, although I understand that Newspapers are group owned and have other publications my suspicious mind still made me think they published the images in another publication than the area it was meant for to use as a filler, as unless some members of the dance group lived in crosby (which was possible) no one was aware that the club was even mentioned. In this case non of the members were aware until they were told by which time the moment was gone.

[Jerry WSL]

This is quite intersting

[ether]

Originally Posted by Jerry WSL

This is quite intersting

Thanks Jerry very interesting

Ed

[GraemeMather]

Interesting reading guys, and as it was said earlier by Ben, it's a lot easier to get a picture agency to do the selling and distributing for you.... it's what they do! A lot of smaller agencies are happy to have images submitted by anyone as long as they are newsworthy and decent quality. At the end of the day, the more pictures in their databases to sell, the more likely they are to make their commission.


Anyway..... I was going to ask Ben a question if he doesn't mind? I was speaking to a couple of staff photographers who were saying that there is an awful lot of agencies who are coming in with cheap images undercutting everyone to the point that editors are picking the cheap and often sub-quality pictures(budget constraints) rather than going for good images.
Subsequently this seems to be affecting the livelyhood of staff photographers and them getting laid off.

Do you think that this is just the "old-boys" reminissing about the olden days etc. or a sign of the times/digital age bringing more, possibly less talented photographers into the frame? Is this a case where you are too?

Cheers
GM