PhotoPlus Practical Photoshop N-Photo Digital Camera World
Go Back   Digital Camera World Forum > General Chat > The art of photography

The art of photography The place to talk about the deeper side of photography: ethics, aesthetics and philosophy.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #71  
Old 12-12-10, 01:32 PM
Bristles Bristles is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12
[QUOTE=amk1977;27488]Hi all,

I received an AP newsletter in my indox this morning. In it was an article regarding some controversey over the 2nd place winner of the Taylor Wessing Photographic Portrait Prize, currently on exhibition at the National Portrait Gallery in London.

The article can be found here.
Is it porn? is it art? Is it suitable for children to see it hanging in the gallery?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I believe it is suitable. The trouble is that as a nation mother's in particular wrap up their offspring in an abundance of cotton wool and when they get older they wonder why there are so many issues with sex.

In 1970 my fiance and a friend and his fiance went to Denmark we hadn't been there a few day's before going into a shop for some groceries and my friend went to where they had magazines and papers and all of a sudden said at the top of his voice, 'bloody hell' as he was looking at a magazine from the top shelf, needless to say they were totally explicit, porn through and through his eyes popping out of his head, very embarrassing for me. I having been brought up in several countries thought nothing of it and quickly retreated as it was nothing new to me and of no interest, but because it is forbidden in the UK the Brits go stark staring bonkers at an adult age simply because of ignorance.

Hide something from someone and it makes them even more determined to investigate until their curiosoty is satisfied. Why hide sex from children?, educate them then there will be no hush hush sex problems when they are older, people like me just laugh at the pathetic adults that create a problem when there should have been no problem in the first place.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 12-12-10, 04:50 PM
GeoffWessex's Avatar
GeoffWessex GeoffWessex is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 1,288
Images: 4
A fair point of view and I think you're right - the British are a little more uptight about sex than in many countries. The 'British Reserve' if you like.
But I still don't see how a poor photograph (which it is in all technical and aesthetic respects) that shows female genitalia so explicitly can do so well in a prestigious Portrait competition. I bet the curatorial staff at the National Portrait Gallery are cursing the organisers and judges of the competition.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 12-12-10, 05:03 PM
Stormsong Stormsong is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffWessex View Post
I bet the curatorial staff at the National Portrait Gallery are cursing the organisers and judges of the competition.
No, they are probably thanking them profusely for significantly increasing the visitor numbers to the gallery!
By the way, the Taylor Wessing Portrait Prize is no stranger to controversy. This year's competition, however, is probably the 'cherry on top' if you will excuse the pun.

Regards,
Denise
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 12-12-10, 05:33 PM
amk1977's Avatar
amk1977 amk1977 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 649
I have to disagree with you Bristles. I cannot see the problem with just letting children, be children and enjoy the innocence of youth, rather than thrusting them prematurely into an adult world which is so heavily sexualized and promiscuous. As a result of introducing sex education to younger and younger children in the past two decades, we have the worst teen pregnancy rate in Europe. Is that progress?

We have parents allowing their pre-teen children, to be plastered with makeup and dressed very provactively, yet anyone photographing a kid or near one, is instantly deemed a paedophile. That in itself seems a bit perverse to me.

Due to the media, young children want to grow up to be "glamour models" like Jordan, or become a footballer's wife. Its all about appearance and celebrity, rather than intelligence and hardwork. Yes, the older generations were more reserved but, what comes with that are morals and decentcy, something that the youth of today on the whole sorely lack and I can only imagine what values will be instilled into their offspring.

I also disagree with your premise that hiding something from someone makes them more determined to investigate it. Unless someone has claivoyant powers, its only when they are made aware of something and then prevented from doing it that they become curious and wish to investigate.

People like you may laugh from aloft your high horse at "pathetic adults" that create a problem in your view but, I would argue that its this whole "progressive" nonsense that has landed us squarely in the mess we are in today. I'd pick a childs innocence and morality over their sexual awareness any day of the week and quite clearly, the education of children that you support has done nothing but exacerbate the problems of teen pregnancy and STD's as a result. Maybe its not those reserved people that are ignorant, perhaps its those that laugh?

Last edited by amk1977; 12-12-10 at 05:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 12-12-10, 05:47 PM
Bristles Bristles is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffWessex View Post
A fair point of view and I think you're right - the British are a little more uptight about sex than in many countries. The 'British Reserve' if you like.
But I still don't see how a poor photograph (which it is in all technical and aesthetic respects) that shows female genitalia so explicitly can do so well in a prestigious Portrait competition. I bet the curatorial staff at the National Portrait Gallery are cursing the organisers and judges of the competition.
Totally agree with your comment, a very poor image indeed.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 12-12-10, 06:10 PM
Bristles Bristles is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by amk1977 View Post
I have to disagree with you Bristles. I cannot see the problem with just letting children, be children and enjoy the innocence of youth, rather than thrusting them prematurely into an adult world which is so heavily sexualized and promiscuous. As a result of introducing sex education to younger and younger children in the past two decades, we have the worst teen pregnancy rate in Europe. Is that progress?

We have parents allowing their pre-teen children, to be plastered with makeup and dressed very provactively, yet anyone photographing a kid or near one, is instantly deemed a paedophile. That in itself seems a bit perverse to me.

Due to the media, young children want to grow up to be "glamour models" like Jordan, or become a footballer's wife. Its all about appearance and celebrity, rather than intelligence and hardwork. Yes, the older generations were more reserved but, what comes with that are morals and decentcy, something that the youth of today on the whole sorely lack and I can only imagine what values will be instilled into their offspring.

I also disagree with your premise that hiding something from someone makes them more determined to investigate it. Unless someone has claivoyant powers, its only when they are made aware of something and then prevented from doing it that they become curious and wish to investigate.

People like you may laugh from aloft your high horse at "pathetic adults" that create a problem in your view but, I would argue that its this whole "progressive" nonsense that has landed us squarely in the mess we are in today. I'd pick a childs innocence and morality over their sexual awareness any day of the week and quite clearly, the education of children that you support has done nothing but exacerbate the problems of teen pregnancy and STD's as a result. Maybe its not those reserved people that are ignorant, perhaps its those that laugh?
Totally disagree with you AMK1977,

A childs innocence is not in question here. What is in question is when a child ask's a question it should be honestly answered and then move on but that doesn't happen the question is brushed aside under the carpet and then it leaves doubt and eventually becomes an issue because adults have made it an issue.

What is so wrong about answering a childs question honestly? it is part of growiung up is it not? hence why when I was in Denmark why my British friend acted like a bafoon and it was of no interest to me whatsoever (please read my previous remark with regard to being in Denmark in 1970) all the tangents that you have deviated off to have no bearing on this issue, the issue is do you answer any questions a child ask's during growing up or do you brush it under the carpet and avoid telling them the truth and leave it for someone else to do YOUR job or for a child to find the possible answers on toilet walls? I have always educated my children and it's perhaps my children that have educated many others.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 12-12-10, 07:03 PM
amk1977's Avatar
amk1977 amk1977 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bristles View Post
Totally disagree with you AMK1977,

A childs innocence is not in question here. What is in question is when a child ask's a question it should be honestly answered and then move on but that doesn't happen the question is brushed aside under the carpet and then it leaves doubt and eventually becomes an issue because adults have made it an issue.

What is so wrong about answering a childs question honestly? it is part of growiung up is it not? hence why when I was in Denmark why my British friend acted like a bafoon and it was of no interest to me whatsoever (please read my previous remark with regard to being in Denmark in 1970) all the tangents that you have deviated off to have no bearing on this issue, the issue is do you answer any questions a child ask's during growing up or do you brush it under the carpet and avoid telling them the truth and leave it for someone else to do YOUR job or for a child to find the possible answers on toilet walls? I have always educated my children and it's perhaps my children that have educated many others.
Perhaps we are not at completely different ends of the spectrum on this issue, although it wasn't evidently clear that you were referring to answering a childs direct question in your original post. "Educating" a child is a broad statement that can be interpretted in different ways. Yes, if your child asks you a direct question, I agree that it should be answered by the parent in an appropriate manner and then move on. The most important factor is that the parent can judge for themselves the level and manner of information given to the child. The child is obviously curious and has come to you for an explanation, which is another important factor. Ignoring the child is not the way to go.

What I take issue with is the subject being taught in primary schools to very young children that are not ready for it or have no need for it. They're babies and do not need to know the full workings of sexual intercourse, STD's, contraceptives, pregnancy, homosexual relationships, hetrosexual relationships etc, etc. They should be playing. developing social skills, learning to read, write and do math, not being forced to learn where an adult male puts his penis.

I was taught sex education it in secondary school at the age of 11/12. Then, your body is changing. Hair is growing in places where it didn't before and girls begin to develop breasts and some may have started their menstral cycle. At that age, children should be taught why their bodies are altering. There is a physical need for that information.

Introducing children to sex at such a young age in schools when they are not ready for it and won't be needing the information for the best part of 10 years is not necessary. It should be down to parents to teach their children, as and when they feel their child is ready, or if their child preempts them and asks. The fact that sex education has been taught to younger and younger children for the past two decades and we have resulting high levels of teen pregnancy just gives credence to the notion that young children should be left to their innocence, rather than making them aware of something that they need not be made aware of.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 12-12-10, 08:10 PM
Bristles Bristles is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by amk1977 View Post
Perhaps we are not at completely different ends of the spectrum on this issue, although it wasn't evidently clear that you were referring to answering a childs direct question in your original post. "Educating" a child is a broad statement that can be interpretted in different ways. Yes, if your child asks you a direct question, I agree that it should be answered by the parent in an appropriate manner and then move on. The most important factor is that the parent can judge for themselves the level and manner of information given to the child. The child is obviously curious and has come to you for an explanation, which is another important factor. Ignoring the child is not the way to go.

What I take issue with is the subject being taught in primary schools to very young children that are not ready for it or have no need for it. They're babies and do not need to know the full workings of sexual intercourse, STD's, contraceptives, pregnancy, homosexual relationships, hetrosexual relationships etc, etc. They should be playing. developing social skills, learning to read, write and do math, not being forced to learn where an adult male puts his penis.

I was taught sex education it in secondary school at the age of 11/12. Then, your body is changing. Hair is growing in places where it didn't before and girls begin to develop breasts and some may have started their menstral cycle. At that age, children should be taught why their bodies are altering. There is a physical need for that information.

Introducing children to sex at such a young age in schools when they are not ready for it and won't be needing the information for the best part of 10 years is not necessary. It should be down to parents to teach their children, as and when they feel their child is ready, or if their child preempts them and asks. The fact that sex education has been taught to younger and younger children for the past two decades and we have resulting high levels of teen pregnancy just gives credence to the notion that young children should be left to their innocence, rather than making them aware of something that they need not be made aware of.
Yes I think that we may have been slightly misunderstanding each others comments. I was referring to the picture in question whilst I think it is very poor and nothing but smutty, if a child asked me why she is different to me down below a parent should educate the child there and then without going over the top or labouring on the subject. It is nothing to be ashamed of but all to often many adults especially women create an issue and make a mountain out of a mole hill instead of educating a child as the occassion arises during growing up. I agree my views are basically similar to yours.

After all it is only a smutty image of a female showing her ugly vag**a. I believe that a lot people DO NOT know what constitutes porn, just because a woman sit's slouching around showing her crotch it does'nt mean to say it's porn some adult's need educating more than children!
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 13-12-10, 12:09 PM
Stormsong Stormsong is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bristles View Post
It is nothing to be ashamed of but all to often many adults especially women create an issue and make a mountain out of a mole hill instead of educating a child as the occassion arises during growing up.
That sounds completely misogynist, as does the first sentence of your last paragraph . . .

Regards
Denise

Last edited by Stormsong; 13-12-10 at 12:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 13-12-10, 12:11 PM
Stormsong Stormsong is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 402
By the way, no one so far has raised another point about the second place Taylor Wessing prize - well, not that I have seen in this forum anyway.
Would there have been the same furore if it had been a bloke flashing his bulging bits or a youngish male sitting in the same pose?
And would the tags 's***ty' and 'porn' have been applied had it indeed been a male subject rather than a female one?

Regards
Denise

Last edited by Stormsong; 13-12-10 at 12:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump