New DSLR - Pentax K5

[GeoffWessex]

I'd love the 645D but the price differential is horrendous. Without looking at all the figures, 25 years back, wouldn't the step-up between a top 35mm SLR (Canon A1 maybe) and the old 645 (or even 6x7) have been far narrower than what we see today between a quality FF camera (like the Sony a900 or Canon 5D) and the 645D?

I can understand why, to a point..... 25 years ago the camera makers only had to worry about the mechanics of the camera, film wasn't their problem. Now the cameras include almost every element required - especially the sensor and processor.

[chris-p]

Sorry to barge in...

I think Pentax are suffering from a lack of direction. They compete OK in the compact market and the produce some of the best DSLRs around but they've no market strategy - which is thanks to Hoya. I look at it this way...

Canon are the biggest. Everyone knows about Canon. I'm fairly convinced that all those people who wander into Jessops on a Saturday thinking they're the next Cartier-Bresson automatically choose Canon because they know the name, the stands are huge and the sales people push them that way.

Nikon are "techy". If you're into your gadgets, or your technology or you just don't want to go with the "obvious" biggest brand, Nikon are the obvious choice. Old name, everyone knows them blah blah blah.

Olympus are seen as innovators. They may not shift as many units as Cankon or have the pedigree of Leica, but the public opinion is that they're the company pushing boundaries. The general camera buying populace don't know (or care) about Fujis EXR pixel binning technology, Sigmas Foveon sensors, 14 bit A/D conversions, refined signal:noise ratios or anything else. Olympus invented the "EVIL" camera. Thats simple.

Sony are selling because they're putting astronomical amounts of money into their advertising and they've developed (very quickly) an effing huge range of cameras. The public neither know, nor care, about the Minolta heritage but it's important. It means Sony could use their marketing skills and electronics know how (they've made Nikons sensors for bloomin' years) to saturate the market and steal sales from Cankon.

But Pentax haven't done any of that. They've struggled to make an impact as they're not producing a ridiculously large range of cameras and they're not quite keeping up with Cankon when it comes to the pointlessly high ISO/low noise tests which, right or wrong, is something that every single person on these forums seems to worry about and what gets the headlines. They're not pushing the technology, they're not advertising very hard and they're not drawing in new customers.

It's a crying shame as they make some brilliant cameras with some genuinely useful features you just don't see elsewhere (sensitivity priority for example). Pentax are doing well in the medical field which is where Hoya are concentrating their efforts but it would be a real shame to see them disappear from the consumer camera market.

Pentax don’t have a market persona. The consumer public don’t know about them because, while every Tom, **** and Harry knows they exist, there are many more companies than there once were. All the electronics manufacturers are making cameras now and, with their huge budgets and massive adverts, Pentax simply aren’t competing. Thomas, Richard and Harry have forgotten about Pentax.

The K-5 is a great looking camera. It’s well specified, bound to have excellent build quality and really ought to be a competitor for the Cankon D7000/7D range. But it won’t be because Hoya won’t push it hard enough.

Edit: Hehe - seems even Mods get edited when we type the shortened form of Richard...

[GeoffWessex]

Couldn't agree more, Chris. Another thing is that the public see Canon and Nikon cameras as being 'professional' and none of the others have that aura about them (leaving Hasselblad and Leica aside - different cases entirely).

Your points about Nikon and Canon are exactly right when it concerns Canada.... people look at you oddly if your camera is a different make... (I sometimes wonder whether they're thinking, "Oh, that's different - he must know his cameras" or "Oh, that's different, he probably doesn't know his cameras").

Mind you, you get some real equipment freaks here.... I was out photographing owls in the snow a couple of years back and met a Nikon user..... we talked about what kit he had (he wasn't vaguely interested in what I had). Got back home and priced up his camera gear..... he had been wandering around in the woods, at -5c, with about $15,000 worth of kit (about 8000 pounds at that time). I met him again this summer, in some different woods (I get around) and he had the same kit, plus new camouflaged camera and lens, clothing and backpack!

When it was all about film and the 'Big Five' (Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Pentax, Minolta - in roughly that order) all of them had their pros and cons. But Minolta got swallowed up (not for lack of innovation but probably just drifted on lower sales and now they're into different things), Olympus come up with innovation, as you say - the 4/3rds, EVIL, Pen etc, and Pentax seem to just bumble along without much direction. Add the fact that Panasonic, Samsung, Sony, Fujifilm, Ricoh have joined the market, Pentax, now part of Hoya, will remain in the doldrums unless they make an effort to undercut Canikon enough that the public actually notice, and/or get a FF camera to get at least up to Sony's sales (I'd love the A900). They recently introduced their medium format 645D and it's something like 11,000 pounds.

[HinFrance]

I think you're bang on Chris. Pentax's marketing department stink. They should either bite the bullet, advertise like no tomorrow and discount like crazy to get some brand awareness out there, or give up.

As for lots of camera models to chose from, I think that latterly the three main players actually have too much choice available. Canon, in particular seem to be on a mindless treadmill of releasing new models even if they are essentially the same as the previous ones.

As a Pentax user man and boy, I am now at the point where I am seriously considering switching to Cankon. But I haven't done it yet

[chris-p]

Originally Posted by GeoffWessex

people look at you oddly if your camera is a different make... (I sometimes wonder whether they're thinking, "Oh, that's different - he must know his cameras" or "Oh, that's different, he probably doesn't know his cameras")

Yeah, you see that here as well. I must admit I'm firmly in the "oh, someone who hasn't just bought the first thing they saw" camp.

Originally Posted by HinFrance

As for lots of camera models to chose from, I think that latterly the three main players actually have too much choice available. Canon, in particular seem to be on a mindless treadmill of releasing new models even if they are essentially the same as the previous ones.

I agree with this. I've ranted about this on these pages ad nauseum - especially with Sony. Far too many cameras. It's the same with car manufacturers trying to invent a "new" niche for a model.

Thing is, though, that regardless of what I think - people are buying Sony cameras! You get choice. People love the right amount of choice (the right amount being very very very important) because it lets them feel like they're getting something designed just for them. It fits their needs perfectly. Almost like it's tailored.

Originally Posted by HinFrance

As a Pentax user man and boy, I am now at the point where I am seriously considering switching to Cankon. But I haven't done it yet

I started out (digitally) with an Olympus E-510 and the only reason I didn't by Pentax was the fact that the Oly was far cheaper.
Now, of course, I'm a techy/geeky Nikon user (and generalised Canon loather for no particular reason!). Yet I still miss my old, battered, second hand Pentax MZ-50. I've used the K-10 and K-200 and they're great cameras and Pentax has huge heritage which would be catastrophic to loose. Come on Hoya - pull your finger out and do something useful and exciting with Pentax!

[Mr Bump]

A few lucky people are now already K5 owners. For those undecided take a look at DxOmark's sensor review here and see whether that wets your appetite.

[Eyeayen]

Playing devils advocate here, I can see what you're all saying about Pentax, I've used their SLR's for years, since I bought my first one actually which was 23 years ago, ( wow that's scary ), I don't know why I bought it then but because that's what I started with i continued along that. Until now, I want an DSLR and although I've looked at EVERYTHING it's come down to Nikon or Canon, and I still can't decide.

If they aren't selling record numbers they probably can't spend too much money advertising, it's all relative. Canon and Nikon obviously have the cash to throw at advertising, even Fuji regularly appear on the back pages of magazines and while I do see Pentax ads they're not out there, just in the middle of the mag.

Pentax are very well specified but I probably read too many reviews and maybe it's a bias by the reviews or something but they never quite come out as well for something or other which is a shame because they've got such good features ! the K5 interests me but to be honest I doubt it will be what I choose...

[amk1977]

Originally Posted by Eyeayen

Playing devils advocate here, I can see what you're all saying about Pentax, I've used their SLR's for years, since I bought my first one actually which was 23 years ago, ( wow that's scary ), I don't know why I bought it then but because that's what I started with i continued along that. Until now, I want an DSLR and although I've looked at EVERYTHING it's come down to Nikon or Canon, and I still can't decide.

If they aren't selling record numbers they probably can't spend too much money advertising, it's all relative. Canon and Nikon obviously have the cash to throw at advertising, even Fuji regularly appear on the back pages of magazines and while I do see Pentax ads they're not out there, just in the middle of the mag.

Pentax are very well specified but I probably read too many reviews and maybe it's a bias by the reviews or something but they never quite come out as well for something or other which is a shame because they've got such good features ! the K5 interests me but to be honest I doubt it will be what I choose...

The K5 looks to be an excellent bit of kit, which is definitely a contender for the D7000. I think that the pricing, which is the same as the Nikon is a major mistake though. For people new to DSLR photography, they pretty much will only be familiar with the Cankon brands and after comparing the specs, they will most likely go with the brands they know are tried and tested in their view.

Lets face it, walking into Jessops, they won't even see a Pentax on display and they aren't available online either. Maybe Jessops don't see Pentax offering the consumer anything different than the other manufacturers they stock??? Coming in a few hundred pounds cheaper though would definitely make the K5 an absolute winner and a much more attractive option.

Equally for those looking to upgrade their current Nikon and canon cameras, the price needs to be enticing enough for them to ditch their bodies and more importantly, lenses. I looked at the Pentax online store and was pretty shocked by the prices, especially as they don't have image stabilization technology inside them as its located in the camera body. No inexpensive 50mm f/1.8 as Geoff mentioned earlier, is a huge negative for me and there is no way I'd pay 800 quid for the 55mm f/1.4

As Chris said, virtually every other company is pioneering new technologies and bring those to peoples attention. Pentax don't appear to be doing anything like that and seem to be more concerned with offering you a DSLR in a choice of colours .

It would be a huge shame for Pentax to disappear from the DSLR market but, unless they get their head back in the game and aggressively position themselves in the market to attract a bigger share, I fear it won't be long before they fade into obscurity.

[GeoffWessex]

The 55mm f/1.4 is 800 quid??!! Wow, I thought it was bad enough here at $900 (around 500 quid). I saw one on sale in St Thomas, US Virgin Islands, last December for US$300!! Didn't have the spare wonga at the time.

[HinFrance]

Well, my mind is pretty much made up now.

DxO have now added the K5 to their database. The sensor scores 82, which is the highest APS-C score so far - the next highest ranking APS-C is the Sony 55 with 73. The only higher ranking FF mainstream camera is the Nikon D3X with a score of 83. See HERE

The dynamic range is truly staggering 14.1 EV compared to 12.2EV for the D300S, and 11.7EV for the 7D for example. You have to go to FF for better low light performance.

I see that there is £120 cash back on the weather resistant twin lens kit too, making the body and two lenses less than £1100. Which is good for something you can use in all weathers without a worry. Or a plastic bag.

As for a 50mm - well there are FA f1.4s for sale on eBay regularly, and I think Amazon still have some new ones. I bought a second hand FA series f1.4 for less than £200 on eBay, in perfect condition. Great lens, but why not go Sigma or Tamron? Some excellent lenses in their ranges and the Pentax/Sony fit are often significantly cheaper because they have no IS motors.

*PS forgot to say, I'm waiting for DxO's test on the D7000 with interest. I expect that to be really excellent too.